Forbidden Donut

It can affect Palin as much as Cheney's daughter being a lesbian affected him. I don't think it means anything.

whoa whoa. was that a legitimate, intelligent post from xemp? well done sir

The blog I love to go to is heavily conservative and the commenters loved the pick of Palin for VP. When this story came out, everybody was very supportive, so I doubt that this will be a big issue.

Yeah, i mean my grandfather is 76 and probably couldn't spell the word internet. I just know in the deep south, things are buzzing about this as he used to be the center of all things politcal in his North Carolina County (albeit, small county). I do see it as potentially damaging only with people, like my grandfather, who think sex outside of marriage is a terrible sin. The fact he even bothered the call me with the news had me thinking.

There are far worse things about Sarah Palin than her daughter being a whore.

More hittable than her mom

Jono, while your grandfather may find it "immoral" and wrong, that doesn't mean others will. Of course, some may share the same opinion, but that percentage is a very small amount. It wouldn't be enough to "damage" an election.

The problem is, the past two elections have come down to extremely tiny percentages, and many religious conservatives are already upset about McCain winning the nomination. I don't think this will make them pull blue, but if that lingering resentment remains, they very well might not vote at all.

First of all, the republican base probably laud the decision to keep the baby.

Second of all:
"This shouldn't be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president. And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories." Barack Obama

You're not helping.

But you're extremely liberal and a loyal democrat; what you do or do not like about Palin is irrelevant to this race. Not that I think you shouldn't bitch about her myriad of shortcomings, but her getting democrats upset can only lead to good things for the republicans come November.

As a politician, he has to say that, but we know better. A politician's family life very much does impact the qualities of their person. Her kid getting pregnant can be seen as a consequence of bad parenting. Obviously that is a debatable subject, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. And obviously her kid's (or hers, we'll probably never know) choice to keep the baby is a big deal to a lot of people out there. I, for one, think it shows just how irresponsible her social philosophy is, and I have no problem discussing that in any detail.

If a politician is going to cite their personal life as part of their experience, then that personal life should be open to just as much scrutiny as their political career. If they use their kid's unfortunate circumstance to help solidify a social stance, then that also should be up for criticism.

Okay. There's a REALLY fine line there. I'm inclined to agree that she opened herself, and her children up to some scrutiny by being a candidate running on family values. But seriously, her kids?

Meanwhile, while the McCain camp claimed that she was thoroughly vetted as a VP, and that they went to the FBI to investigate her, they apparently have just come out and said that they used Google, and read local news. The FBI says that they don't vet candidates EVER. This is Obama's vetting process.

I wouldn't be surprised if the choice was made to try and take the wind out of Obama's post convention sails, with the intention of having her step down to deal with family matters, like her retarded baby and soon to be grandmother-ness, and Lieberman or Romney get chosen.

While her philosophies may be wrong, it does not necessarily mean they are what caused the pregnancy.

I wasn't trying to imply that they did. That comment was directed at her stance on abortion, not her stance on pre-marital sex.

ok cool. also, http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/08/...-contraception/ says:

Dating Levi Johnson handled that. Hockey player, Alaskan, he's going to bang her.

Interestingly there's still rumors floating about in the *booming voice of god* BLOGOSPHERE */booming voice of god* that Bristol Palin is actually the mother of Trig Paxton Palin, the downs syndrome kid, and that since she may have been 16 or younger at the time of conception that they kept it under wraps. Now that everybody is going over everything about Sarah's life right now, they played a little cover up.

Sounds like a load of crap to me, but if we see this baby not being carried to term, perhaps a stress induced miscarriage, this theory will get revisited.

/tinfoil hat.

The middle daughter will be hotter at 17. She will be the "normal" one. Believe you me.

So 17 year old daughter bangs douchebag hockey player, gets pregnant because the fool didn't wrap his tool, and potentially birthed retarded baby prior, negatively impacting your bid for VP. This is the silliness that ensues when you don't consult Mr. Rubber or Dr. Coathanger

Her mommy strongly opposes consultation of either of those two experts. And if she had her druthers you wouldn't have the choice. Huzzah!

While most of us here may argue our points until someone gets angry enough to say "I quit", I won't even bother. I stated what I thought, and apparently, like I expected, no one seemed to notice it. Unless you count Jimmah's post, but that is irrelevant. Why are we focusing on her family life, when, it is her issues and her past voting we should be talking about? Sure, family can affect something this big, but honestly? If McCain/Palin lose this election, it won't be because of her daughter. It will be because of their lack of popularity. Most likely though, it will be because people are fed up with the Republicans and how they have been handling the past 8 years while having control of the Presidency. Which, I guess can be grouped in with they lack of popularity. If they win, then hell, good for them. If they lose, no one should blame it on her daughters situation and whether or not her daughter will keep it or not.

I believe I responded directly to your post.

Because the general public doesn't care about issues. The news knows that this is a popularity contest (with team play involved). If one team gets enough people to like their player better, they win.

The easiest way to get the most votes is to show that the other guy/gal is a bad person.

Heh. Whoops. I guess I missed that. Sorry!

@ xemplar anyway, cause I feel bad:
In addition to what Court's saying, I think it's important to note what makes this election different than those in recent memory.

Republicans like fiscally, socially, and otherwise conservative. Our recent republican leadership has abandoned many republican ideals in favor of courting a much more religious, and much more fascist right. So yeah, the brand is in trouble. Meanwhile, McCain, painted as a maverick for decades, and for the most part, rightfully so, is able to rebuild respect for the label. I think a lot of republicans are extremely disappointed in what their party has become and yet they linger on the hope that the days of competent leadership with moral fiber and intellect can come back. Many. Manymanymany will pull the lever for McCain no matter what.

Democrats have been really loud for the past 8 years. It's how we have a democratic majority for the first time in a decade. They maintain their fervor now and it really energizes the base to keep hope alive. Blah blah. Black man comes on the stage. Drama. Intrigue. The base explodes. You have young people signing up in record numbers across the nation. You have black people registering like a motherfucker. So their base's demographic is much different. Single issue voters don't matter so much to the Dems.

There are the mythical Clintonians, who may refuse to pull the lever for Obama, or may outright pull it for McCain. We aren't yet sure of the effects of his VP choice, or if that choice will survive the Convention.

My point is this.

Many people who were stalwart voters in every election in recent memory. The core demographics of each party I mean, may not vote at all, and there are many new voters, who could vote en force, or do the usual and stay at home.

This election's different.

I love how the Mccain party is playing it off as "This will in no way effect her ability to serve as governor or VP". I only respond to it because i see it as effecting her ability greatly. Her daughter at most has a high school education. At what point does Palin not expect to have to support her daughter and grand daughter financially, and thusly adding to the stress of everyday life? (*ring ring* it's the pentagon calling, mccain had a "stroke" and we have Bin Laden in our sights, awaiting your orders... (in background) BUUUT MOOOOMMM I NEED A NEW PRADA HANDBAG FOR MY SENIOR PROM!!...) An exageration, maybe, but lets not forget the fact having a 17 yro with a baby is no simple ordeal. I'm doing my best to over look the fact that the unnamed father is probably in close proximity to her age and can't support 3 people.

The unnamed father is named Levi Johnson. He has on his myspace that he doesn't want to have kids. And that if you get in his fucking face he'll hurt you or something. He also said something to the effect of "I'm a fucking redneck." Match made in heaven.

Jono, your point is valid, but feminists would hate that you are saying that she can't do her job effectively because she has too much on her plate as a mother.

i love the kitchen reference. Very sly, but i caught it. You can't shampoo a shampooer

I even called my mother to ask her if i'm being sexist, and she said "no", "she has a great deal of responsibility as a mother with a pregnant daughter and a special needs child". Parenting is a responsibility plain and simple. Adding to those responsibities are the fact she now must support a daughter and grand daughter for an extended period time, this is assuming her daughter does the right thing and raises the child, forgoing higher education, and financial security on her own. The father sure sounds like a winner and considering he'll "hurt anyone who gets in his face".

I really wasn't trying to be sexist, but i can see how it might be. Bottom line though, parenting can't be overlooked as a complication to politics on bother sides on the ticket.

Any idea what Levi Johnson's age is? I'm just curious. My mother added that he refused to marry Bristol Palin, and has no intention of raising said child.

LOL @ your post coffee. I love it too!

errr he is 18 and they are getting married. here is a picture and story: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/r...n_open_sec.html

I attempted to research the guy a bit more, and can't find any sort of reputable source stating what she said, so i'll retract my statement. Seeing how many people are out there trying to impersonate the guy is pretty crazy. My mother must have fallen for one... Granted the info that nunes stated is still quite interesting.

drama time? http://patdollard.com/2008/09/hello-levis-coming/

And Mary, Jesus mother was a pregnant virgin.

You're 18, and you fuck the governor's daughter. She finds out she's preggers. 5 months later when she's starting to show it, you finally get the balls to go to your parents. You say you wouldn't have been fucking if you didn't plan on getting married because that would be wrong. You don't say, "Well we were just fucking around and I didn't pull out... I guess I'll marry her though."

It's the same as any high school pregnancy, and there's upwards of an 85% chance that it will end in disaster if it's like every other marriage borne of an unexpected pregnancy.

Also. The pressure to wed has been placed on those kids since they were old enough to understand words. Palin's extremely religious and fully subscribes to some of the crazier fundamentalist beliefs regarding sex and sexuality. I don't think these kids grew up in a bubble... They are probably scared shitless and now the whole country knows that Bristol Palin is easy, and Levi Johnson doesn't wrap his tool. I find the fact that Camp D is using this information to slam Palin and McCain abhorrent, and I find it equally reprehensible, if not slightly moreso, that Camp R is using this information to court the religious right. One of them is sort of a tit-for-tat response. The other is shameless exploitation.

um what was the original tit in the tit-for-tat?

I don't think it is abhorrent at all that people are citing this in the political race. If I raised five awesome kids that went on to lead extremely successful lives, I would expect people to think good of me for it. If I raised five awful kids, I'd expect people to think poor of me for it. Being a shitty parent shows that you don't understand people very well and you have poor judgment, and I think a good understanding of people and sound judgment are two of the fundamental traits of a good politician (in the sense that this politician "does good things for their country" as opposed to the more common "does things that improve their own chances for more income, power, and influence").

Lemme pull one out of a hat.

Remember that whitey tape? and how it ended up in the 24 hour news cycle? utter nonsense. Like this.

@ court:
you have an excellent point. And it's the ONLY angle that this can be examined from that doesn't make it a complete waste of time. It also makes a pretty fun backdrop to her policy positions regarding abortion and abstinence only education. My fundamental problem with this type of discussion is that it will be cited by the Republicans as evidence of Barack abandoning his promise to run a clean campaign. No matter what HE says, it's just as much about how we conduct ourselves.

So in the interest of constructive political discourse:

Sarah Palin is a Creationism-in-your-schools, government-in-your-vagina, (my)-religion-for-everybody, the-war-is-gods-will, so-is-the-pipeline, against-rights-for-gay-couples-until-the-supreme-court-says-otherwise republican. Also, she's a do-do head.

The word you're looking for is "neoconservative" or, as I have begun to call them, "anti-conservatives".

Don't get me wrong. I think it is reasonable to talk about a politician's personal life when it is related to their abilities as a leader, but I think there are also far more important things to discuss besides that. The number of issues that you just joked about are a good examples of more important issues.

she'd have to have 3/5, 4/5 or 5/5 bad children for me to consider her a bad parent. you can be the best parent in the world and your kid might turn out differently than you had planned - ie he isn't social even though you taught him to be simply because he has the gene for depression/anxiety; ie he is wild because he wants to experience things for himself even though you taught him not to and set a good example. plus i really dont see this as showing that her kid is 'bad', as mistakes happen and dealing with them can illustrate character. a bad kid is probably one that does not live up to their potential... and of course bad choices like having a baby at a young age could damage one's potential, but such bad choices are not insurmountable.

That's all well and good, but it isn't really a rebuttal of my point. I wasn't trying to say she is or is not a good parent, but rather that the quality of a politician's personal life should be open to discussion just like everything else they do. If it happens to involve their kids, well that sucks...but that's not the public's problem.

Although since you brought it up, I think she's an awful parent.

It's interesting to me that this woman wants to meddle with the way Americans raise their children but she can't even raise her own child up to par with her own standards.

So, basically, you are saying that anyone who gets pregnant in high school and then gets married to the person who got said person pregnant will fail? That is the most ignorant post I've ever seen. The whole percentage is bullshit as well. Many do fail, you are right on in that point. Though, 85%? To give an example, my uncle got my aunt pregnant when she was 16/17, they are now in their mid 40's with 2 additional kids. I may be a bit biased, but I call bullshit on your part about teens and failed marriages. My Aunt/Uncle may be a "rare" story, but is factual. If the teen marriage divorce rate is 85, please, show me a link that says that. I couldn't find anything like that.

CJ -> That is a jackass thing to say. What standards did her daughter not live up to? Having premarital sex is an act for chrissakes, not a standard.

16/17 year olds are not mentally ready to make the leap into marriage. While 85% MIGHT be a slight exageration, considering we currently have a 40-50% divorce rate among ADULTS, would prove 85% is probably not far away from the correct percentage.

I also read an article about Palin stating that she cut $1.1 mil from a $4 mil act providing unwed teen age mom's with the support and skills needed to manage the responsibility. I see two messages coming from Palin.

Yes you're right, premarital sex is an act. And being a virgin until you're married is the standard that her mother held her to.

Thats an impossible standard. No parent would disown their kid for failing it. It is an ideal to attempt to live by.. not a standard to hold to rigidly.

You would be surprised...My half sister's mother is a bitch. When my half sister was a teen, she got into some trouble and ultimately got pregnant at, I believe 19..Yeah, thats right. Her mother kicked her out of the house and she wound up moving into a house with her new boyfriend, now husband. The mother, currently is trying, along with the guy who got her pregnant, to try and take her daughter away from her. Her daughter is now 7, I believe and she also has a little 2 or so year old boy. It is "impossible?" No, I don't think so. Some mothers just the way you described.

Which is why Sarah Palin is opposed to abortion in even cases of rape and incest, and she thinks that teaching kids how to use birth control in schools is immoral and wrong. Keep spinning though.

Also. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. And hyperbole isn't meant to be taken seriously.

She has more like a 27% chance of getting a divorce in the next 5 years. Which is higher than most other age groups (except boomers interestingly, but give our generation time... we'll work up there) But if you count the bible-belt style of her upbringing she's actually at higher risk for divorce than even them. 30-40%. Not 85%, but the point remains.

Seriously though, good for your Aunt and Uncle. They are an exception to the rule, and a testament to their resolve and level headedness.

Okay I dont agree with her on abortion. But she does not think contraceptives are immoral!! One link I posted said she belongs to some Feminist group that believes in promoting contraceptives.

Her answer to a questionnaire for the gubernatorial race in 06.

Here's McCain's campaigns statement on how he feels regarding the same subject.
"Sen. McCain believes the correct policy for educating young children on this subject is to promote abstinence as the only safe and responsible alternative."

linky

Do you really think that is a decent argument? This is just like Hannity saying that if Edwards can't keep a commitment to his wife, how could we ever expect him to keep a commitment to his country. Following that logic, Clinton should have been a terrible president. He wasn't a terrible president. He did a pretty good job.

Personal issues don't always get in the way of a person's ability to govern. It's not fair to judge the parents for the child's crimes. Today there are so many people that blame their parents for their actions. There is no problem in blaming parents for how they treat their children, but the children decide how to act on their own (except in some really weird, bizarre cases). Judge people by their actions, not the actions of the people around them. Should we go back to discussing Obama's association with William Ayers or Jeremiah Wright? I thought both were irrelevant then, as I think this is irrelevant now.

We don't even know if the child has the same ideology of the mother, and if she doesn't, would we expect her to follow it? Can any of us here say that we didn't do anything that our parents wouldn't approve of?

This is certainly more relevent than Obama serving on a board with Ayers, or having an attention whore pastor. But it's still not the best thing to focus on.