Death Penalty for non-murder cases
  • scrubblescrubble April 2008
    QUOTE
    He is not a killer, but the state of Louisiana is determined to execute Patrick Kennedy for his crime.

    The New Orleans native faces that reality as he sits on death row at Louisiana's maximum security prison, the largest prison in the nation. The Louisiana State Penitentiary, or Angola Prison, is the size of Manhattan and surrounded on three sides by the Mississippi River.

    Unlike the 3,300 inmates awaiting execution nationwide -- including the 94 other men at Angola -- Kennedy, 43, is a convicted rapist. The victim was his 8-year-old stepdaughter.

    For the first time in 44 years, a state is preparing to execute a man for a felony other than murder. The U.S. Supreme Court will hear arguments Wednesday on whether Louisiana can use capital punishment in child rape cases.

    The constitutional question before the justices is whether the death penalty for violent crimes other than homicide constitutes "cruel and unusual" punishment. The high-profile examination of the death penalty also raises anew a national debate over selective prosecution and race.

    "A lot of people think there should not be the death penalty [in this case] because the child survives," said Kate Bartholomew, a sex crimes prosecutor in New Orleans. "In my opinion the rape of a child is more heinous and more hideous than a homicide."

    Kennedy's appellate attorney, Billy Sothern, argues, "When we look at what it means to be cruel and unusual, this is exactly the kind of thing that raises these serious concerns of the constitutionality of Mr. Kennedy's death sentence."

    Kennedy was sentenced to die in 2003 for sexually assaulting his stepdaughter in her bed. The crime occurred in a quiet neighborhood in Harvey, across the big river from New Orleans. Besides severe emotional trauma, Louisiana prosecutors said the attack caused internal injuries and bleeding to the child, requiring extensive surgery.

    The former moving company driver had claimed two teenage boys committed the crime near the family's garage, a story the girl -- identified in court papers as "L.H." -- repeated for 18 months after the ordeal.

    An African-American teenager was initially arrested, based on Kennedy's allegations, but later was cleared of any wrongdoing. Kennedy also is African-American.

    Police in Jefferson Parish quickly turned their suspicions on him as the attacker.

    The girl later accused her stepfather, after she returned home from a temporary stay in foster care. Kennedy has denied the charges, but the state supreme court upheld the conviction and punishment.

    The U.S. Supreme Court, both in 1976 and a year later, banned capital punishment for rape -- and by implication any other crime except murder. But Louisiana 19 years later passed a law allowing execution for the sexual violation of a child under 12. State lawmakers contended the earlier high court cases pertained only to "adult women."

    Death penalty opponents say Louisiana is the only state to actively pursue lethal injection for child rapists, and argue, among other things, that it could give attackers a reason to murder their victims.

    "If they're going to face the death penalty for raping a child, why would they leave a living witness?" said Judy Benitez, executive director of the Louisiana Foundation against Sexual Assaults.

    Benitez also says testifying in a death penalty case can be deeply traumatic for child. And the risk of wrongful prosecution may be higher is such cases since children might prove to be unreliable witnesses for the prosecution, because of their susceptibility to suggestive, leading questions.

    No one in the United States has been executed for rape since 1964. Other state and federal crimes theoretically eligible for execution include treason, aggravated kidnapping, drug trafficking, aircraft hijacking and espionage. None of these crimes have been prosecuted as a capital offense in decades, if ever.

    In the appeal filed with the high court, Sothern argues Louisiana "flouts the overwhelming national consensus that capital punishment is an inappropriate penalty for any kind of rape."

    The law's supporters counter that besides murder, no crime is more deserving of the death penalty, and the punishment would be used only in the most heinous of circumstances.

    For its victims, "It takes away their innocence, it takes away their childhood, it mutilates their spirit. It kills their soul. They're never the same after these things happen," said Bartholomew, an assistant district attorney in Orleans Parish.

    "Louisiana has been a pro-death penalty state for a very long time," the prosecutor added. "And I think a lot of people agree with the death penalty for this type of case here in our state."

    Five other states have similar laws. Four of them -- Florida, Montana, Oklahoma and South Carolina -- have had them for years but not applied them in decades. Texas enacted its version in June, but no defendant has yet been designated death-eligible for child rape in any state but Louisiana.

    Skin color has also played a role in the political and legal debate over expanding capital crimes to include rape.

    "When we look at the death penalty in the South we always need to be conscious of the role that race plays," said Sothern, deputy director at the Capital Appeals Project, which represents all the state's death row inmates. "And I think that the fact that Mr. Kennedy [is] a black from Jefferson Parish, a place with a troubling record of racial discrimination, I think that that speaks volumes."

    Sothern cites Department of Justice statistics showing that all 14 rapists executed by Louisiana in the past 75 years were African-American. Nationwide from 1930 to 1964, nearly 90 percent of executed rapists were black, he said.

    Kennedy recently was joined on Louisiana's death row by another child rapist -- Richard Davis, who is white. Davis' legal appeals have barely begun.

    The justices will no doubt consider loneliness of Louisiana's aggressive position when deciding whether a national consensus now exists to allow a broader range of crimes to become subject to capital punishment. The high court has in recent years banned execution for the mentally retarded, underage killers and those receiving an inadequate defense at trial.

    Angola prison officials would not make Kennedy available for comment.

    The youngster at the center of the case is now in college and wants to be a lawyer. Her family says that like most underage victims, she has been scarred forever, and they believe her assailant deserves the jury's punishment.

    "It's going to be justice," said Lynn Ray, the victim's cousin. "It's going to be that she can look forwards and not backwards, and not have to look over your shoulders, and one day see him. Or see him coming after her."

    A ruling from the high court is expected by late June


    what do you guys think about this?
  • NunesNunes April 2008
    I think the death penalty is pointless. I suppose there's a tone of "justice" to it but shmeh, I just don't see how killing the bastard makes it better. And it definitely doesn't set a good precedent.

    By saying that the death penalty is okay in non-homicide cases, we're opening a can of worms. We're suddenly saying that it's not just tit for tat anymore, it's about what we as a society think is morally reprehensible at the time. To take it to a logical extreme for the sake of argument, "let's stone gay people" keeps popping into my mind.
  • GovernorGovernor April 2008
    What a load of shit.
  • GachiGachi April 2008
    This goes hand in hand with some of the other stupid laws out there. For example, the 3-strike rules in California.

    A man is serving life in prison for his third offense, which was stealing a slice of pizza. So, taxpayers are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a $2 slice of pizza. They need to revamp the laws into felonies vs misdemeanors.

    In this case, explain to me how Death is justified for rape. The rape in itself is disgusting and such, but I don't see how death in this case is not being considered cruel and unusual punishment.

    The US Justice System is so fouled up these days, who knows where it goes from here.
  • scrubblescrubble April 2008
    yeah, you guys are all basically right on the money. i think if this does happen it could a slippery slope into god knows what. next thing you know we'll be like Saudi Arabia and cutting off someone's hand for stealing.
  • cutchinscutchins April 2008
    If I was the girl or related to her i'd probably want the guy dead.

    But idk. I suppose it is cruel, but what sentence would you guys suggest? Life in prison? Is that not more cruel than death?

    Idk.
  • GovernorGovernor April 2008
    Life in prison brings with it the possibility for redemption or appeal. People who have spent half their lives in prison are being released all the time after new evidence arises that proves their innocence. These types of cases aren't all shotty-original-trial types, either.

    I think it is absolutely horrible that we [Americans] tend to justify things like the execution of innocents in order to satisfy our desire for "justice." When a person is off of the streets for the rest of their lives, their negative impact on society has been entirely removed. Why do we need to extend that further?

    I don't know...innocent people have died by execution. More innocent people will die. Frankly, I think everyone that supports the death penalty has to bear a bit of that responsibility, and I think they're lying to themselves if they think otherwise.
  • cutchinscutchins April 2008
    I was setting aside my beliefs in the morality of the death penalty. Personally yeah I think I oppose it and it does bother me very much that innocent people have been executed and will continue to be for some time.

    I'm just saying. Assuming that they have like actual video footage of this girl getting raped by her step dad, then I think it's a tough decision on whether or not he deserves to live.

    I think it would be easier for him to get over his time in prison and move on with his life than it will be for this girl to ever forget what he did to her. Physically and mentally this girl will be scarred.
  • GovernorGovernor April 2008
    If the crime permits, then remove their possibility of parole. That ensures they never get the opportunity to move on with their life, but it still gives them the ability to seek to prove their innocence for the rest of their natural life. In the rare case that an innocent is convicted of such a crime, we owe them at least that much.

    The whole "if it was clear they were guilty" argument is a really slippery slope that I think should be avoided altogether (like all slippery slopes). What constitutes clarity? Either way, it's leaving the sentencing up to interpretation that could be subject to misinterpretation as time goes on.
  • EvestayEvestay April 2008
    its not like they can sit in jail and constantly try to appeal to prove their innocence. at some point you run out of appeals and you are stuck in jail and cant find new evidence yourself.
    anyway, i have an interesting thought. what would the guy who did this rape think of himself if he actually became reformed in prison and actually understood what he did? im pretty sure he would think he deserves to die. you cant possible live with yourself once you gain the necessary morality to understand that what you did was wrong.
  • MagicMagic April 2008
    kill'em all and let your god sort'em out
  • I think that, as the article pointed out, race probably plays more into this than anyone wants to admit. But color aside, they are correct that rape is a heinous crime, and it makes people want to lash out against the rapist. But I think that the death penalty is stiff here. I'm mostly against the death penalty, and I think if he wants to have some more cracks at his day in court, then he shouldn't be barred from sitting in prison until they come.
  • NunesNunes April 2008
    I personally don't think capital punishment is moral or just in ANY context, but that aside, if we're going to accept it as a form of justice then is it really just to kill somebody when they didn't kill anyone? I just don't see the point. This panders to the daughter and the family and perhaps the community that views this man as less than human, some kind of monster. When dealing with psuedospeciated criminals it's hard to avoid calling for the death penalty, but if you still consider them people then there is no justice in murdering a rapist. We live in a wacky time, where it's okay to put people to death, but it's wrong to do it violently. We want them dead but we don't want it to look like they suffer. We want them to burn in hell, as long as they look peaceful for the trip. If you support the death penalty, you should be okay with pulling the trigger or throwing the stone, otherwise you're probably full of shit.
  • NunesNunes April 2008
    DNA test frees Texas man who spent almost 23 years in prison for rape conviction

    A man who spent nearly 23 years in prison in Texas for a rape and burglary he did not commit has been set free in Dallas.

    A judge on Wednesday overturned the convictions of 49-year-old Thomas Clifford McGowan. He was convicted for a crime that took place in 1985 and got life sentences on both the rape and burglary counts.

    Lawyers say he was convicted largely on eyewitness misidentification by the victim. Now a DNA test has shown that McGowan could not have been the man who committed the rape.

    McGowan is the 17th man since 2001 whose Dallas County conviction has been overturned on DNA evidence. That is more than any other county in the United States.
    Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
  • PheylanPheylan April 2008
    Shoot him in the head out back and use his pocket change to pay for the bullet.


    At the same time, I think the judge should use some discretion in assigning the death penalty, based on how sure a thing the court case is. Its difficult to quantify, but I think it might be possible.
  • meathammermeathammer April 2008
    the death penalty based typically on the testimony of a child is not a good idea.

    i do agree with the three strike laws. in gachi's example....the guy is a TWO-TIME FELON. whether he stole a piece of pizza or didn't return a library book, if he was stupid enough to break the law again, or more correctly to GET CAUGHT breaking the law again. don't you think he was most likely breaking other laws for which he didn't get caught? two felonious acts then acts an angel until he gets hungry for some domino's? puhlease.


    meat
  • NunesNunes April 2008
    QUOTE (meathammer @ Apr 17 2008, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    the death penalty based typically on the testimony of a child is not a good idea.

    i do agree with the three strike laws. in gachi's example....the guy is a TWO-TIME FELON. whether he stole a piece of pizza or didn't return a library book, if he was stupid enough to break the law again, or more correctly to GET CAUGHT breaking the law again. don't you think he was most likely breaking other laws for which he didn't get caught? two felonious acts then acts an angel until he gets hungry for some domino's? puhlease.

    meat


    And just because you haven't been caught raping 8 year olds doesn't mean you do. So let's put you to death. Use your head bro. The three strikes law is designed to punish the lower class. Whether pure of intention or not it's how it works out. I don't get paid enough to feed my family, so my check to the phone company bounced. That's my 3rd bounced check in 6 years. Life in prison.
  • PsychoBudPsychoBud April 2008
    Hardly an apt comparison, ANunez, as bouncing a check isn't automatically a felony, it must be prosecuted as theft, larceny, or fraud, depending on circumstances, and then it's usually a misdemeanor, not a felony, unless the cash value in the case exceeds $1000 (in most states that's the threshhold, in WA, it's $1500), nor does it count as a strike, to get a strike you must commit a VIOLENT FELONY the first two times, then be convicted of a third felony crime (in this guy's case, it was a misdemeanor to steal the pizza, but felony violation of his parole because while felony paroled, ANY criminal activity is automatically a felony by way of violation of parole, not by nature of the crime committed)


    Translation: Pizza boy didn't go to jail for the rest of his life for stealing a $2 slice of pizza, he went to jail on his third strike by committing the felony of being engaged in criminal activity WHILE ON PAROLE FOR A FELONY CRIME...he was still serving time for his last (violent) felony conviction, it's just that he was paroled out of jail for the remainder of his sentence.
  • NunesNunes April 2008
    My fault. I have a misunderstanding of the 3 strikes rule. Which I still think is retarded. But it at least doesn't sound like the biggest crock of shit in the universe anymore.

    However, when the rate of recidivism is over 85%, this is basically a 1 strike rule.
  • PsychoBudPsychoBud April 2008
    I'm pretty sure the recidivism rate is due to how our prisons are run, rather than how the laws are structured, because places with stricter prison rules about socialization and free time and amenities (such as japan, where prison is austere...no decoration of cells, no television privileges, no "added " privileges of any sort, and if you start being social with another inmate, one of you is moved to a separate block (basically a "no talking except occupationally" rule) have lower recidivism rates.

    Anecdotal evidence...five years ago I picked up a strike (mutual assault with weapons, but I didn't stop when he stopped trying to defend himself (due to extent of injuries I'd inflicted)), it was felony assault on both of us, but I stayed out of trouble while on parole, he didn't...he got another strike for DWS (driving while suspended) while on probation, which counted as a violent felony BECAUSE he was on parole. I have since been picked up for another trespass that WOULD have been felony if I hadn't been off parole, but as was was a misdemeanor (assault in the fourth...telling the guy to back the fuck off before I used his skull to bust his car window), but was a misdemeanor since I was off the hook...cost me an overnight in county and a $150 fine (plus another $210 for public intoxication...funny how me, drinking, and fighting go hand in hand)

    What I'm saying is three strikes works just fine, so long as you wait through your parole to do anything else "questionable"
  • FoowankoFoowanko April 2008
    QUOTE (PsychoBud @ Apr 18 2008, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Anecdotal evidence...five years ago I picked up a strike (mutual assault with weapons, but I didn't stop when he stopped trying to defend himself (due to extent of injuries I'd inflicted)), it was felony assault on both of us, but I stayed out of trouble while on parole, he didn't...he got another strike for DWS (driving while suspended) while on probation, which counted as a violent felony BECAUSE he was on parole. I have since been picked up for another trespass that WOULD have been felony if I hadn't been off parole, but as was was a misdemeanor (assault in the fourth...telling the guy to back the fuck off before I used his skull to bust his car window), but was a misdemeanor since I was off the hook...cost me an overnight in county and a $150 fine (plus another $210 for public intoxication...funny how me, drinking, and fighting go hand in hand)

    What I'm saying is three strikes works just fine, so long as you wait through your parole to do anything else "questionable"


    Goddamn!


    I think the death penalty goes a little too far as there's no real sense of justice being done (yeah I know this has already been mentioned). Whether you lock him up for life or kill him, either way his chance at life is done. If the man goes free after raping the girl, then the rest of the family (and probably plenty of other people) would all go BAWWWWW over it and create the same kind of bullshit that happens whenever anything unfavorable occurs. It sucks in cases like these where there's no real "right way" of punishing someone.


    Personally, I don't believe in the death penalty for something like this; it should only go for people who have killed at least one person in their life and thus don't belong in the world.
  • PsychoBudPsychoBud April 2008
    The problem with "life" imprisonment is that it often ISN'T..."good time" that gets time taken off your sentence (a "life" sentence isn't really life, it's 50 years, unless you get "life without parole"), parole boards who will convince themselves that a 60 year old man who's been in prison 30 or more years HAS to have learned his lesson, and wouldn't be CAPABLE of being a danger to others anymore (like a 60 year old molester can't abuse a kid...riiiight...and murder just takes the strength and agility required to pick up a gun, point it, and pull the trigger...nothing your average 60-70 year old can't manage), "work furlough" which puts you on the outside while you're still "serving your sentence in prison", and many other programs that make a "life sentence" anything but....unless the guy gets shanked in the shower because even the other scumbags can't abide such a scum as him....

    and this is exempting things like escapes, transfers to ISO/UFTSD and other "non prison prisons" ( a guy can knock 20 years off a 50 year sentence if he opts for ISO, plus aquire "good time" while in ISO, and most short-eyes DO ask for ISO to avoid the things that would happen to them in GP)


    basically what I'm saying is we pay an average (nationally) of $64,827 per year per inmate to imprison them, and they rarely, if ever, actually do "life" if their life isn't cut short by another inmate, while the range of costs involved in a death penalty case, appeals included, ranges from $250K to $400K...less than the cost of a 10 year sentence, and the guy is NOT going to get out and hurt anyone again, under ANY circumstance.

    economically, morally, and politically, I'm all for the death penalty...with the caveat that we'd better be SURE...DNA/fingerprint evidence sure, not circumstantial evidence sure, before we make it a death penalty case.


    Sorry I'm so cynical, but I pulled a "5 year sentence" that actually cost me 30 days in jail, 1 year of weekly parole check ins, and four more years of "being on the string" (meaning if I'd been busted for ANYTHING criminal, it'd have been a violation and automatic strike 2), the guy I tangled with pulled the same sentence, got 60 days in police medical custody, a year's parole, 4 more years "on the string", picked up a second strike for bullshit (driving while suspended, first offense), spent 3 months in for that (as a misdemeanor, it should have been 30 days suspended, with fines, as a felony, it should have been 1 year inside, minimum, since it was a parole violation, on top of the remainder of his 5 years), and had his 5 years extebnded
  • NunesNunes April 2008
    that anecdote sounds like poor evidence for the three strikes thing. If you'd gotten into that situation with the trespass at a less convenient time you'd be on strike 2 and more than likely 3 and looking at life in prison. Yeah it's easy to say "stay out of trouble" but for some people, in some neighborhoods, with some demeanors or propensities other than criminal, it's a touch harder than that. You stand to throw a lot of people in jail for very long periods of time for being little more than troublemakers, not violent criminals.
  • PsychoBudPsychoBud April 2008
    It can be considered poor evidence for it, but I don't think it is poor evidence for it, just evidence that it needs to be worked over better, so that it does, in actuality, apply only to violent felonies, and it should be possible to pick up more than one in one incident...for instance, armed robbery where an assault with a deadly weapon AND a murder are committed should be an automatic three strikes (three violent felonies) if he's convicted on all three, while assault with a deadly followed by felony fleeing and felony reckless driving should be ONE strike (only one "violent" felony in the group)[and this is how it currently works, one incident, one strike, the first example would be ONE strike because it's ONE incident, though]...but in the second case, if he's nailed a month later for a misdemeanor that is rated a felony ONLY because it's a parole violation, it shouldn't be a strike, and if he's hit with a "non-violent" felony (felony fraud, felony DUI, whatever), it should not be "strike two" OR "strike three" under any circumstances...I'm not saying our system is perfect, but I like it better with three strikes= life in prison (as I said "life in prison" usually isn't), but I'd prefer they redefine "strikes"

    As for the death penalty for this scumbag....I can't say what my opinion is, because I'm conflicted...for me, in order to apply the death penalty, there are two questions that have to be answered in the affirmative before we apply CP...and one of them is going to have to be a group subjective consensus:
    1.) Is the crime heinous enough (or did he commit it often enough) that we want to be sure he's NEVER able to commit it again?
    2.) is the evidence solidly forensic, not in the form of circumstantial and eyewitness testimony?

    If both of these are a "yes", then hang him, cut him down, electrocute the body, put a bullet through its head, and burn the remains to ashes. If either one is a "no" then lock his ass up, but be aware he MIGHT get out and do it again.

    And as far as I stated regarding ISO earlier, I believe ALL prison sentences should be held to full term (no "5 to 10" bullshit, you get 8 years, you do 8 years) unless suspended in favor of other punishments (in other words they could suspend a 2 year sentence, and leave it hanging over your head as time you WILL do, no doubt about it, no questions asked, if you get anything worse than a speeding ticket for the next two years), and all prisoners should be as isolated as possible from other prisoners...as is, we're running state sponsored "crime colleges"...you go in for simple break in burglary, you walk out knowing how to steal cars, how to make meth, how to commit fraud with negotiable instruments, and many OTHER "useful skills". ISO would solve that particular contributor to the recidivism rate.

    When I went in for my 30 days plus one year suspended (bullshit, I should have done the year and had four more suspended, I admit it), I had no idea how to break into a car except breaking the glass....in 30 days I learned how to open my locked car to retrieve my keys when I locked them in without ruining the lock
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