God talks to the rational man
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http://techadox.com/?p=4QUOTEGod: Hello there. Allow me to introduce myself. I’m God.
Rational Man: God.
God: Yes?
Rational Man: No, I mean, so you’re telling me you’re a god.
God: No, God. There’s only one, and that’s me.
Rational Man: I don’t believe you.
God: Why?
Rational Man: Would you believe me If I said I was Superman?
God: Of course not. I know who you are.
Rational Man: That may or may not be, but if I say I am Superman, you won’t believe me. I don’t blame you. If you say you are God, you might as well have said you were Superman.
God: Ah, well. This certainly isn’t the first time I’ve been doubted. Suppose you want proof?
Rational Man: Yes.
God: No faith, eh?
Rational Man: No. I may have “faith” that there is a country called Australia in the southern hemisphere, and that if I took a plane there I could go to Sydney and see the famous opera house. However, if some guy walks up to me on the beach and says he’s God, well, yes, I want proof. But let’s agree on what “proof” means.
God: Fair enough.
Rational Man: You have to offer logical, irrefutable proof that you are, indeed, God, creator of the universe, etc. I take it that pretty much sums up what you are claiming?
God: That sums it up quite nicely, yes.
Rational Man: Ready when you are.
God: (points at a seashell - it rises into the air) How’s that?
Rational Man: (runs his hand over and under the shell, even grabs hold of it then lets it go) Not bad. But I’m afraid that doesn’t prove anything.
God: What? No one can do what I just did.
Rational Man: That’s true, if you even did it at all. I saw a guy make the Statue of Liberty disappear once, at least from the viewpoint of the observer.
God: So you don’t believe what you can see? Or touch even?
Rational Man: I do when doing so helps me get through my day. But, as I said, claiming to be God is a bit bigger and more important. So, all I know right now is that either A: My brain is being told something is happening that isn’t, or B: You are a creature that has powers that are currently outside of my understanding.
God: Bingo! You’ve never seen anyone levitate a seashell. And I promise I am not manipulating your brain.
Rational Man: Two hundred years ago, no one had seen a television, but the laws of physics that allow televisions to do what they do existed two hundred years ago. I don’t know how you can levitate a seashell, but that does nothing to persuade me that you are the supreme creator of the universe.
God: Fine. How about this? (waves his hand, and they are standing in front of the opera house in Sydney, Australia)
Rational Man: Impressive. I’m going to leave the whole sensory input manipulation argument behind, just because it would bring an abrupt end to our discussion. (several people gasp when they realize two men materialized out of nowhere) Teleportation. Nice trick. You are indeed powerful, or at least have a device or something I have no knowledge of.
God: Device? You know, 2,000 years ago, people were more easy to impress.
Rational Man: I’m quite impressed. But again, I’m impressed when I see a Rembrandt painting. I have no idea how he was able to make a gold chain around someone’s neck with just a few small brush strokes. But Rembrandt is not God.
God: No, I am.
Rational Man: Can’t help you.
God: So what if I just caused you to cease to exist?
Rational Man: Anyone with a gun or a pointed stick could bring that about.
God: I don’t mean kill you, I mean un-make you.
Rational Man: And the difference to me would be?
God: Your soul would no longer exist.
Rational Man: I don’t believe in a soul. I have no evidence. Now, being a rational man, and a logical thinker, I know I cannot prove a negative. I can’t prove there isn’t a soul, but until I have evidence of some kind, I can’t say I believe in them, either. Same for you.
God: So I could turn the sky blood red.
Rational Man: That would be impressive. You certainly must be the most powerful being I have ever encountered.
God: Isn’t that enough?
Rational Man: No, sorry. I will have to add “powerful beings” to the list of things I have observed, but someone else may come along, claim they are Thor, and outdo you.
God: Thor does not exist.
Rational Man: So you say. How would you prove it?
God: I can see where this is going.
Rational Man: Good. I was kind of getting bored with the whole process.
God: So what you are saying is that, because you are this so-called “rational” man, that no amount of proof would convince you that I am God?
Rational Man: I’m afraid so. My limitation, I’m afraid. I guess that would be the nature of the whole “faith” thing.
God: Yes.
Rational Man: Sorry. As I said, I only have “faith” in a limited list of processes, only because I would hate to have to take the time to test and verify gravity before I got out of bed every morning. But, since I can’t prove a negative, I can’t stand here and say with absolute conviction as a rational man, that you are not God. So, if you are, and all that stuff about Heaven and Hell and miracles and such is true, hopefully you’ll take into consideration that you gave me a brain to think with. And if I have to not use what you gave me to be on your good side, I can’t help that.
God: Can’t promise you anything.
Rational Man: Didn’t think so. Don’t suppose you could teach me that teleport trick?
God: Afraid not.
Rational Man: Thought so. But can you send me back to the beach? It’s a long walk from Sydney.
(poof)
The rational man found himself alone again on the beach, with only one set of footprints behind him, which was proof only that he had walked there himself. And that would have to do.
I find this discussion very interesting. It proves three big points to me:
1. Somethings are impossible to prove.
2. Faith is hard for anyone to have.
edit: preemptive definition of faith: "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." -
I think everything is impossible to prove if you guy by the guidelines that the rational man set forth. He mentioned Rembrandt, but he can't prove that Rembrandt even painted the necklace he mentioned or even that he was actually seeing the painting at all. In fact, he can't even prove that his own sight exists at all. If you go far enough, the rational man couldn't prove that even he exists.
So I wouldn't say that the rational man proved much of anything other than that if you adopted a purely philosophical approach to existence in general then nothing could be proven including the existence of god. -
QUOTE (Scabdates @ Nov 3 2007, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That so called rational man seems more like a douche bag than a logical thinker, to me...
takes one to know one?/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> <33
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I'm not so interested on the debate of whether or not God exists. What I find a more interesting topic of discussion would concern the effects of the existence of that, or a similar, organism, rather than the existence itself.
This applies to situations where I even care at all. Generally I believe things in the here and now to be of far greater importance. For instance, finding out how I'm going to keep myself alive when I get out of college is probably more pressing than sharing nihilistic points of view about the existence of a super-natural force. -
QUOTE (Black Balloon @ Nov 4 2007, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm not so interested on the debate of whether or not God exists. What I find a more interesting topic of discussion would concern the effects of the existence of that, or a similar, organism, rather than the existence itself.
This applies to situations where I even care at all. Generally I believe things in the here and now to be of far greater importance. For instance, finding out how I'm going to keep myself alive when I get out of college is probably more pressing than sharing nihilistic points of view about the existence of a super-natural force.
well that's fine and all until those people who believe in the supernatural force are saying it tells them what to do and what you should do in your life. -
QUOTE (crazyd1415 @ Nov 4 2007, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>well that's fine and all until those people who believe in the supernatural force are saying it tells them what to do and what you should do in your life.
I have a finger for these people... and it isn't the one you put rings on. -
QUOTE (redbone @ Nov 5 2007, 01:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have a finger for these people... and it isn't the one you put rings on.
x2 -
People who live around me understand pretty well that I won't take any shit, and I have no proclivity towards being told what to do by delusional cocks, crazyd. No offense is meant to anyone, here.
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QUOTE (Black Balloon @ Nov 4 2007, 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm not so interested on the debate of whether or not God exists. What I find a more interesting topic of discussion would concern the effects of the existence of that, or a similar, organism, rather than the existence itself.
This applies to situations where I even care at all. Generally I believe things in the here and now to be of far greater importance. For instance, finding out how I'm going to keep myself alive when I get out of college is probably more pressing than sharing nihilistic points of view about the existence of a super-natural force.
Finding out how you're going to keep yourself alive after college barely requires rational thought. Whether or not a god exists is perhaps the most important topic that has both short and long term impacts on humanity.
If by 'I believe things in the here and now to be of far greater importance' you actually mean 'I believe trivial things that contribute to my consumer-worth to be of far greater importance', then good for you. However, if you were not being so shallow, I would argue that the debate over the existence of god could have a profound impact on your here and now, past, and entire future. -
QUOTE (Black Balloon @ Nov 5 2007, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>People who live around me understand pretty well that I won't take any shit, and I have no proclivity towards being told what to do by delusional cocks, crazyd. No offense is meant to anyone, here.
Thanx for straightening that out for us. -
QUOTE (Scabdates @ Nov 5 2007, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Oh, by the way, the amount of proof that moron wanted is ridiculous.
It wasn't meant to be taken literally. It was more of a commentary on the philosophical quandaries involved with the idea of existence as applied to the idea of a supernatural god. -
I'm not too wise or smart, but I believe this dialogue is an analogy where the rational man is an average human, and God is playing himself in a more straight forth role. Miracles happen everyday, but since these miracles happen every day they are overlooked, or maybe the miracles happened a long time ago and we just see them as history or something that people just exaggerate. It is very hard to make a person believe in a true miracle, even harder to make them believe in the one Christian God creating these miracles. I believe this whole universe is a miracle, there is no 100% proven explanation how it came to be, which to my eyes makes it a miracle. Truthfully, I believe even if you don't, that someone or something is responsible for the universe, and I believe the Christian God is that someone. I also believe God is trying to show the world that he exist with these overlooked miracles, not because he is looking for attention, but more like he wants to have a nice relationship with the "Rational Man".
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QUOTE (True Believer @ Nov 5 2007, 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm not too wise or smart, but I believe this dialogue is an analogy where the rational man is an average human, and God is playing himself in a more straight forth role. Miracles happen everyday, but since these miracles happen every day they are overlooked, or maybe the miracles happened a long time ago and we just see them as history or something that people just exaggerate. It is very hard to make a person believe in a true miracle, even harder to make them believe in the one Christian God creating these miracles. I believe this whole universe is a miracle, there is no 100% proven explanation how it came to be, which to my eyes makes it a miracle. Truthfully, I believe even if you don't, that someone or something is responsible for the universe, and I believe the Christian God is that someone. I also believe God is trying to show the world that he exist with these overlooked miracles, not because he is looking for attention, but more like he wants to have a nice relationship with the "Rational Man".
Hmm... I'm not sure how you stepped from the passage to miracles. Can you elaborate a bit further? -
QUOTE (Governor @ Nov 5 2007, 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hmm... I'm not sure how you stepped from the passage to miracles. Can you elaborate a bit further?
Well throughout the dialogue God is creating miracles to show the rational man that he is "God". They might be more "miraculous" miracles than the ones I were talking about because they don't happen every day, but miracles they both are. To me creating miracles is one way God creates relationships with people. Even though the rational man didn't believe in "God", he did have a small relationship with him. -
QUOTE (Governor @ Nov 5 2007, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Finding out how you're going to keep yourself alive after college barely requires rational thought. Whether or not a god exists is perhaps the most important topic that has both short and long term impacts on humanity.
If by 'I believe things in the here and now to be of far greater importance' you actually mean 'I believe trivial things that contribute to my consumer-worth to be of far greater importance', then good for you. However, if you were not being so shallow, I would argue that the debate over the existence of god could have a profound impact on your here and now, past, and entire future.
Pardon me all to hell for being an atheist (not agnostic; I'm not asking for proof before I believe unconditionally) then, Gov. If he does exist and it's thoroughly proved then I guess I'm rather forced into accepting it. Even then, it's kind of like the current government. They exist somewhere and do arbitrary crap that largely doesn't affect me so I'm not terribly worried about it. I'm looking at the fundamentals for my continued existence: Food. I think we can all agree eating is a damn nice thing. I'm probably not going to have much help from my parents getting out of college (not do I particularly want it), so I get to look for a means to support myself. Yes, I'll have a job. One single, basic job will not necessarily support me adequately.
Continued living barely requires rational thought? Maybe not for some of you who have gotten through it, but I worry about a lot of shit. What impacts would God's existence have on our culture? Whoop-de-fuckin'-doo, there's some deity who created us. That's great; he probably won't be very happy if I let myself die off because I'm too much of an ignorant cock to look after myself. Nor do I particularly think he wants us to waste the lives he gave us sitting around worshiping him. Consumer worth? Look at the fucking LanBBQ's you guys throw. You call me a consumerist when a number of you run off and drink and eat and sleep for days on end, but suddenly when I worry about how I'm going to keep myself alive at in good health at that point in my life, I'm the consumerist?
Shallow. For examining what I'm going to do for the remainder of my life. You inane cock; you fucking hypocrit. I'm not even worrying about how many luxuries I'll be able to afford later in life. And while I realize how little people really need to survive, I think you people take in luxuries with far less mediocrity than I.
To elaborate on consumerism further for your gratification, everyone is a consumer by definitional standards. Consumerism is the belief that happiness should be equated to how much material wealth one has. Abstractly, it is also the belief that the free choice of consumers should govern economic structure.
What no one seems to realize is how deeply ingrained money is in any society. It's necessary for life. A healthy lifestyle is what I'm interested in, not the luxuries you buy in excess with everything else you all earn. I think it's shallow to be thinking about things that aren't proven, and beyond that, not even proven that, in that event that proof is found, there will even be any meaningful impact on our lives!
If God does not exist, things in my life continue very much as planned. Religion around the world crumbles and I stop giving a flying fuck because I'm not involved with any of them. I could see a greater emphasis on science to explain the phenomenon of creation, because human beings are always looking for excuses. The fundamental principle of science is to provide meaning where there is not.
If God does exist, I accept that there is something. People who are religious say "I told you so", I shrug and accept he's sitting somewhere on his divine ass pumping back a few beers. There is less of a focus on science to provide meaning, and more of a focus to provide new luxuries. Work in general will slow down for a while, there will be a slight economic recession, and after a while things will resume on a very similar course. For an anthropological proof of this, look at any society (Aztecs in particular) that believed so strongly in Gods to the point of fanaticism. They functioned in such a way that they were not all that different from us on a fundamental level. Granted there was no great revelation, but the final result would be pretty fucking similar. I don't imagine any religious wars at that point because someone is proven right, and everyone else will think "Oh well fuck, whatever. Guess we'll worship this guy." Simple mob mentality. And either way it goes, life continues. The only difference in either scenario is focus on science and length of recession, and we've been through it before. -
QUOTE (Scabdates @ Nov 5 2007, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Oh, by the way, the amount of proof that moron wanted is ridiculous.QUOTE (jordan @ Nov 11 2007, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Oh, by the way, the amount of proof that moron wanted is ridiculous.
Wow, two people said the exact same thing, with the same spelling, and the same punctuation. -
QUOTE (Phil @ Nov 12 2007, 11:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Leave the philosophy to the philosophers.
And QQ, BlackBallon.
QFT -
QUOTE (Phil @ Nov 12 2007, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And QQ, BlackBallon.
I do my best in hopes of winning your love, Phil. -
"I don't care if God exists. If he did I wouldn't agree with his plan anyway. I would refuse to love him even if it saved myself. Among other reasons, the fact that region basically determines religion makes me feel like God needs to go back to the drawing board. I refuse to believe that it is right, and somehow justified that there are people on this earth that leave to a lake of fire for eternity simply because they were born into a region where the 'correct' religion wasn't even tolerated or because the child's mind was raped by their parents with the 'wrong' religion as soon as they saw the opportunity to "save" them, leading that child to serve the wrong god their entire life only to learn it doesn't exist and that some other lucky bastard was taught the 'right' way and gets to go to heaven and have everything they have ever dreamed of and more for eternity. Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time…
I have heard others, when asked of Christianity, sarcastically say "I love fairytales." What fairytale? It’s not even a fairytale, it's a fucking nightmare riddled with pain, greed, and selfishness. I'm not going to love a crack dealer for giving me prolonged euphoria if it was acquired by causing unimaginable pain to billions of people.
I do not look down upon those that do not believe as I do. In fact I envy those that actually have something to look forward to or that can see that whatever happens is for the best because it follows some plan that inevitably leaves them in heaven. My belief either leaves me burning for eternity or just simply not existing anymore."
Part of an essay I wrote in high school. I know there was more but this was all I could find of it. The hours I spent thinking about religion for this essay changed my life completely. -
You must have it out for Eisenhower's soul, then.
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Not a history buff are you? When Dwight D. Eisenhower became president, he held strong and communicated a firm belief that all people should have some sort of religion regardless of background. From there, anyone should be able to draw obvious conclusions about the ideas behind my quip.
You people kill me sometimes. -
QUOTE (True Believer @ Nov 11 2007, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Wow, two people said the exact same thing, with the same spelling, and the same punctuation.
As much as I laughed when I saw this, it ain't me. Looks like it might be a bot? -
I think what he meant is that each individual owes it to themselves to form a belief as to what the afterlife, if any, holds for them. The fact that I disagree with the philosophy set in Christianity doesn't mean I don't have a set of beliefs (I think that qualifies as "some sort", does it not?). I too think it's very important no one ends their life never having thought hard and setting out a firm belief structure for themselves (hence how I stated earlier that it changed my life). I think it encourages maturity and helps people identify who they are.
Forgive me for thinking you were referring to Eisenhower's role in the US army that dropped the nuclear bomb sacrificing enemy lives for American ones . Well, your actual quip was even farther off anyway. You either didn't read my post or you think Eisenhower meant that everyone should not only believe in God, but agree with his plan. -
QUOTE (Malisk @ Nov 19 2007, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think what he meant is that each individual owes it to themselves to form a belief as to what the afterlife, if any, holds for them. The fact that I disagree with the philosophy set in Christianity doesn't mean I don't have a set of beliefs (I think that qualifies as "some sort", does it not?). I too think it's very important no one ends their life never having thought hard and setting out a firm belief structure for themselves (hence how I stated earlier that it changed my life). I think it encourages maturity and helps people identify who they are.
Forgive me for thinking you were referring to Eisenhower's role in the US army that dropped the nuclear bomb sacrificing enemy lives for American ones . Well, your actual quip was even farther off anyway. You either didn't read my post or you think Eisenhower meant that everyone should not only believe in God, but agree with his plan.
He focused more on the idea that believing in the ultimate plan of some supernatural force (simply referred to as God) had the function of providing meaning and focus in a person's life, and the truth of that is questionable, as evidenced by the personal beliefs of yourself; specifically, in your second sentence where you quite poignantly state you disagree with God's overall plan. The obvious thesis is, of course, that you think the disagreement with such a plan could provide at least equivalent focus.
In summation, you and Eisenhower would have different ideas about how one should go about gaining a relative order in one's existence. Hopefully this should make what I said a little clearer; it wasn't an obtuse joke in the first place. But having to make it this acute wasn't part of the plan either.
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